Charles Douglas’s story is an elusive one, pieced together from different tidbits. Douglas spent time at Brown University before he dropped out as a result of alcohol and drug addiction. A stay in an institution followed where he recuperated from a nervous breakdown and went through rehab. Soon after his release, he reentered society as a Burger King employee.

During this odyssey, Douglas was also making music. As one-half of Vegetarian Meat, he released an album and then recorded two solo albums, Minor Wave and The Burdens of Genius, in the mid-‘90s. In 1999, The Lives of Charles Douglas was released. Produced by Moe Tucker and featuring the former Velvet Underground percussionist on drums, Lives was a lesson in straightforward minimalist rock and roll—full of songs with quirky lyrics and catchy hooks—and one of that year’s best records.

Gadfly: How did you decide on life as a musician?

Charles Douglas: I was always pretty into music. When I was 14, I started a band called Vegetarian Meat with some friends in Dayton. Kim Deal even came to see us play once (she also lived in Dayton back then). We were pretty bad but in a comical way, I guess. No.6 Records actually put out a couple 7" singles and an album in the early ‘90s. It was so much fun, I just kind of stuck with it and got really addicted. I was also really into the whole pre-Nirvana indie scene, so it was a good time to be making noisy strange music.

At some point, when you were at Brown University or working at Burger King, did you see yourself doing something else?

Yes, those are two of the more interesting parts of my life. I actually did end up graduating from Brown, although it took longer than it was supposed to. And yes, for a while I actually did work at Burger King. It was both really funny and really depressing—I was certainly aware of how bizarre and pathetic it was at the time. I did meet all kinds of interesting people there, though. All kinds of weirdos. The boss was about 18, which was funny considering I was in my early 20s. I was pretty hopeful that I wouldn’t have to end up working at Burger King for my whole life. I did steal a big box of Burger King crowns before I left, which I used to wear when I played live.

Your bio mentions a struggle with alcohol and drug abuse, and you were actually hospitalized after a nervous breakdown. How much of 31 Flavors reflects this struggle or is a result of it?

Yeah, I figured there was no point in trying to hide the whole drugs and alcohol thing. I definitely went way off the deep end for a bit (not that it wasn’t fun in a sick kinda way). My time in the hospital was actually related to coming off drugs—and there was a long stay in rehab too. I think what happened was that early-20s experimentation with drugs just went too far. Most of my friends back then were also heavily involved in drugs. There wasn’t a whole lot to do except get high and make music.

I think 31 Flavors really exemplifies my drug-addled lifestyle. The Minor Wave part was me high, trying to make a really catchy, slick pop album on my eight-track (an impossible task probably). The Burdens portion was just me in a pretty crazy state, trying to document my madness. I barely remember recording some of the songs on it—"Suicide Note," for example, just kind of appeared.

I think drugs and alcohol at first had a positive effect in terms of freeing my mind to explore all kinds of things. However, pretty quickly they began to sabotage the music—you might be able to hear a decline in sound quality/vocals/playing from Minor Wave to Burdens (although the songs get more interesting). I rarely drink now and don’t do any drugs stronger than occasionally smoking a joint. I was completely sober for The Lives record—maybe it was a tad too straight ahead (more on that later). But the new stuff I’m doing now is very strange—kind of like a bigger studio version of the 31 Flavors stuff. I think in the long run drugs and alcohol probably don’t matter much if the songs are there; I mean, Prince apparently doesn’t drink or do drugs and his stuff was fantastic for years.

Do you see any parallels between the music of someone like Daniel Johnston and yourself?

Yeah, there’s definitely some parallels, especially with the Burdens half of 31 Flavors. However, I think there are two important differences—first, Daniel is genuinely mentally ill whereas I think in my case drugs were the contributing factor. Second, I think I’m trying for a bigger scope now than he was/is. My favorite songs of Daniel’s are the stripped-down acoustic ones, not the ones with the whole band—I haven’t really liked the last couple that much (although I guess I do really like Artistic Vice, and that’s him with a band, I guess). I do love his music though, and I’m sure some of the Burdens part is reminiscent of his more out-there musings.

You thank Harmony Korine inside the CD. What is your connection to him?

I admire his film Gummo a lot, and I think his Dogma film Julien Donkey Boy is pretty interesting too. His films inspired me to make my own film called The Sparkle Room (it’s just been certified officially by Nimbus Films/the Dogma collective in Denmark as Dogma #26). Most people are horrified by it when they see it, but then there’s like one percent who love it! Filming it was just insane but fun. My friend Manish Kalvakota (he plays on 31 Flavs and the Lives record and has done 3 solo records) put up the money. His grandfather was the Prime Minister of India in the early 1990s, so he is rich and dabbles in film production both here and in India. If you can imagine a film that looks how 31 Flavors sounds, then you’ll have a pretty good idea of what it’s like!

Well, the new stuff I’ve been doing is a little stranger again. I think because The Lives of Charles Douglas was recorded so quickly, and because a lot of the tracks were cut pretty much live in the studio, it was both more "rockin’" and straight-ahead too. I guess it was also a batch of songs that maybe were more traditional musically and lyrically than some of the 31 Flavors stuff. It was a lot of fun to record, that’s for sure, and it’s great in a Velvets/Ramones/Beat Happening kinda way.

Minor Wave and The Burdens of Genius seem to fit together like this—almost like a double album. To me, if your last album was called The Lives of Charles Douglas, 31 Flavors could almost be called The Mind of Charles Douglas. Would you agree?

Hey, that’s actually a great title. Yeah, I think the stuff on 31 Flavors is probably more personal and bizarre, just because a lot of it was performed and produced by me alone. I guess it’s very excessive in a way—like one hundred percent of my madness shines through. I always like things like that, e.g. Prince’s records, David Lynch’s films, etc. I think 31 Flavs gives an accurate series of snapshots of my mental state at that time.

The Lives of Charles Douglas was really one of my favorite albums for a while. Was there a conscientious decision to make it bigger in scope than your previous efforts? How were you able to get Moe Tucker involved?

It was the first record I ever made in a real studio, as opposed to 31 Flavs being all home four and eight-track recordings. I think better sound quality, etc. and Moe’s drumming made it sound much "bigger." Moe got involved because I sent her a letter in ’95 and a copy of Vegetarian Meat’s album, which she liked. We kept sending things back and forth, and then finally in ‘97 I asked if she’d like to produce The Lives record and she said "yes." Then she also volunteered to play drums because I didn’t have a drummer, which I thought was really cool (she is my fave drummer ever, pretty much). Moe is really cool; she had a lot of great stories about Lou and John Cale, too. She’s still very close friends with Lou, in fact.

The Lives was very reminiscent of the Velvet Underground at times. Was that a conscientious decision or a natural result of having Moe Tucker involved? Who are other influences, inspirations? Are you inspired by other art forms?

I love Moe Tucker. She is the greatest—and her drumming is just perfect. Working with her was a blast, and maybe in the future we’ll do something together again. I think her drum sound definitely made the record sound kind of "Velvety," which was what I wanted (I love the Velvets, of course).

Some other artists I really love are Prince, The Pixies, and The Shaggs. I listen to tons of ‘60s stuff, of course—lots of Syd Barrett always. I love Bjork, too. I also want to mention an "artist" I hate because I think it’s funny. I really don’t like that guy Ryan Adams very much. His music is lame and sucky and very boring. I think he’s a big poser. He’s "the next big thing" or something. Have you heard his record? It’s not that great, really. He’s annoying, too.

How do you write songs?

Well, most of them are personal, I guess, although sometimes it’s an experience or incident that gets reconfigured slightly. Others are just more random—for some songs, the lyrics come really quickly and easily, and for others it’s more effort. On 31 Flavors my favorite song is "Monkey Island"—which really isn’t about anything personal. It’s about a plane that crashes and strands a guy on Monkey Island, and then the monkeys pet and stroke him and feel him up. He’s on drugs, I think. Maybe there are no monkeys. The song "The Rabbit Never Gets the Carrot" is pretty good, too. I was trying to write a "folk song." I listen to Prince a lot, too. I love Prince!

Is "Henry Lee" a real person?

Yes, although I changed his name. He was a boss I had for a while, a pretty shady character. He was a real weirdo—just the worst guy in the world to work for. Everyone hated him and made fun of him when he wasn’t there. He ran over his girlfriend’s dog by "accident" apparently.

Do you prefer working alone or with others?

I love Prince. I own every single record he’s ever done (yes, including ones like Emancipation). I probably listen to his music at least every other day. From the late ‘70s up to the late ‘80s he was really pretty fantastic. I wrote that song "Prince" on Burdens in tribute to the great man.

Minor Wave is six years old and The Burdens of Genius, four. What do you think of these albums now?

I think they deserve a Grammy for being the best albums in the history of the world!!! Actually, I think if I just heard a song like "Suicide Note" or even the end of "Monkey Island," I would think the "artist" was surely insane. I actually think they hold up really well, and are probably more interesting than the Lives record, if a little stranger and more raw. Moe Tucker told me she met Phil Spector in the ‘60s and said she loved his records and he said, "Then why didn’t you buy the product!!!"

As someone clearly labeled indie, does it ever bother you that despite producing quality music, you are confined to the outer fringes, especially on a commercial level or just on a media level?

First, it's definitely annoying and funny that the records are on the outer fringes. As a friend once pointed out, if they were any more "underground," then they'd be in a coffin! However, there is a lot of freedom that comes with that. I can pretty much do whatever I want musically. Yet, it is frustrating. My guess is that if I continue to make records with really good songs on them eventually some level of recognition will come, even if it's a 30-years-too-late kind of Skip Spence/Shaggs appreciation. I also think that most mainstream music is total garbage, so in some ways I'm glad I'm not even engaged with all of that. Along the way there have been a few major labels who expressed interest in my madness... and Scott Litt was calling for a while—but then stopped. So anyway, it's annoying the records don't do better, but I'm sure I'll keep making them.

What are you working on now?